tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post4106187673741938736..comments2023-10-04T08:57:29.443-07:00Comments on God, Faith and Science: Atheism: A Null Hypothesis on GodRyan Mannshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-6575178160525672922012-01-25T10:30:15.490-08:002012-01-25T10:30:15.490-08:00Ah yeah I couldn't remember the exact number a...Ah yeah I couldn't remember the exact number and I didn't want to say 6.9 if I wasn't sure. I think you made theism pretty clear when you said "I view the evidence for a personal god..." but thanks for clarifying anyway. Yeah I get your position, I think the evidence for theism is a little stronger than for Santa or Zeus, or the Ogopogo though but I understand what you mean when you say the evidence isn't persuasive or you have natural explanations so I understand how you can relate them.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-50247727676155418162012-01-25T10:23:39.366-08:002012-01-25T10:23:39.366-08:00Good so we agree then.Good so we agree then.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-74274666798928061942012-01-25T10:17:35.886-08:002012-01-25T10:17:35.886-08:00Yep... it does apply both ways and it should. Athe...Yep... it does apply both ways and it should. Atheism/Theism is different from Agnosticism/Gnosticism.Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-79311934870105530842012-01-25T10:16:28.042-08:002012-01-25T10:16:28.042-08:00I think he's a 6.9 in his books. But that stil...I think he's a 6.9 in his books. But that still doesn't claim to know there is no god. While I might not be a 6.9, I view the evidence for a personal god to be very similar to...<br /><br />-a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny - something that has been taught to them, perhaps experienced in a way that they interpreted to be supporting their belief, and so forth. <br /><br />-an ancient-greek belief in Zeus, where believers had the same reasons for believing in him as they do today to believe in Yahweh or whichever god.<br /><br />-a modern belief in bigfoot, the ogopogo, or alien abductions - something that may have been experienced in a seemingly 'very real' way, but is much more of a guess in trying to explain a mysterious or surreal experience than actual evidence to support a definitive belief.<br /><br />So I wouldn't say that I'm sure there is no personal God. But I don't have any evidence for it and I have alternative, natural explanations for everybody's personal experiences of god that I've ever heard. Of course, it isn't to say that I'm right and they're wrong, only that I haven't been persuaded by any anecdotes or storytelling and have never come across any empirical evidence. <br /><br />(I'm trying my best to make it clear that I'm discussing theism, not deism... I totally understand deism and don't have a problem with it except to say that it's irrelevant in my mind and not very different from atheism.)Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-58195844045382775512012-01-25T10:05:07.300-08:002012-01-25T10:05:07.300-08:00Well you could say the same about theism. People b...Well you could say the same about theism. People believe their is a God, but not all Christians (or believers like myself) claim to know there is a God. It depends upon the individual and the definition he or she uses. Because obviously there are people who claim that they just know, 100%, that God exists. So I think it can go both ways, from what I've seen anyway.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-59665037109595283322012-01-25T10:02:54.105-08:002012-01-25T10:02:54.105-08:00Well Dawkins also said in one of the youtube video...Well Dawkins also said in one of the youtube videos that he is like a 6.5 I think he said something like "well we can be almost 100% sure" so even if he feels he's 95% sure...he might as well say he's sure. As a scientist he probably hesitates even more to say that though, but if he equates the belief in God to the belief in Santa or the Eater bunny then he might as well just say he's sure. So imo that's pretty close. Though I realize this is not your stance, and I posted this not aimed at your atheism but for atheists who feel they know for sure that there is no God. Because believe it or not they're out there.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-25441340295652721002012-01-25T09:59:59.779-08:002012-01-25T09:59:59.779-08:00And... I should add... if an atheist does claim &q...And... I should add... if an atheist does claim "there is no god", this is not a reflection on atheism, but rather a reflection of his/her epistemological stance on agnosticism/gnosticism. I think all atheists would agree that Webster's is using an incorrect definition of atheism when it says "the doctrine that there is no deity".Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-43191106655771024152012-01-25T09:53:07.164-08:002012-01-25T09:53:07.164-08:00No doubt... from my experience interacting with at...No doubt... from my experience interacting with atheists, I have never come across one that claims "there is no deity". Maybe in the past? Maybe some people somewhere? I don't know... but it isn't the common definition for today. <br /><br />Even the hardcore atheists don't say "there is no deity" that I know of. On Dawkins 7 point scale of belief, where a "7" means "I know there is no God", even Dawkins says "no thinking atheist would consider themselves '7', as atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind."Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-37730730948895375082012-01-25T09:48:48.168-08:002012-01-25T09:48:48.168-08:00"Agnosticism and gnosticism are perfectly co..."Agnosticism and gnosticism are perfectly compatible with theism and atheism." Great line, wish more people recognized this.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-64630219314456799032012-01-25T09:46:05.977-08:002012-01-25T09:46:05.977-08:00Well it just depends on which definition of atheis...Well it just depends on which definition of atheism you use. I understand your atheism better and I think it's a better position than some of the other more hardcore atheist positions. Just from Webster:<br />a : a disbelief in the existence of deity<br />b : the doctrine that there is no deity<br /><br />But I know where you're coming from.Ryan Mannshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147557620542008220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-84537714897729315402012-01-25T09:45:06.454-08:002012-01-25T09:45:06.454-08:00Here's one of the top quotes from HP which I t...Here's one of the top quotes from HP which I think explains it better than I did:<br /><br />-----<br />"Part of your problem is that you just don't actually understand what atheism is. It isn't a certainty that there are no deities -- that would be gnostic atheism, and there are some gnostic atheists, but it isn't itself atheism. All atheism is is the absence of theism. Theism is the positive believe in the existence of at least one deity. Atheism is the absence of that belief. That can range from the rare gnostic atheist who is certain no deities exist, to the much more common agnostic atheist, to the again rare individual who has never even heard of the concept of deities and thus has never considered the question.<br /><br />Remember, agnosticism is not a "middle position" between theism and atheism. Theism and atheism are binary. If you're not a theist, you are by definition an atheist. Gnosticism/agnosticism aren't about what you do or don't believe, they are about what you believe it's possible to know. Agnosticism and gnosticism are perfectly compatible with theism and atheism.<br /><br />The simplest explanation I've seen comes from John McCarthy, who said: "An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who thinks that the evidence on the god question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf question.""<br />-----<br /><br />The only addition I would make is that "deism" is another option - and one that uses a much different definition of "god" than theism.Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5971878073430397143.post-88844568634831000792012-01-25T09:23:58.546-08:002012-01-25T09:23:58.546-08:00This goes back to one of the most common misunders...This goes back to one of the most common misunderstandings of atheism: that it claims the null hypothesis that "God isn't". This is not the case. Atheism is the lack of belief in any particular god. It doesn't claim "knowledge", which is why most atheists are technically agnostic-atheists... they don't claim to know that there is no god, they just don't believe in god.Chad Kettnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11674298748255636124noreply@blogger.com